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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Jul 26, 2012 8:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: non-CREAM, DEAD related...

"they dropped those complete tunes requiring a lot of practice & by implication, talent/skill/etc"

No - the implication here is that they were too lazy or too stoned. The talent and skill was still hard-wired and hard-won.

And disagree - Bob had loads more talent than Pig, just lacked the charisma or whatever it was some people think Pig had. (Pigpen vocals don't do much for me.) Tons of great music without Mickey too.

Still glad you did a Dead post, and I will never capitalize cream.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 27, 2012 3:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SYFace SUCKED...direct vote of ALL DEAD members, JOTS...so don't write in

Trust I was quoting Blair JAckson...but, finished the book and it could've been written by ME! He does end up giving Bob some props, but clearly he wasn't a Bob Lover, FWIW. Have you read it? A defn early era is better bias, but of course, it ends in 82...

JOTS--he recounts how EVERYONE hated Steal your MOney!

He quotes all band members at length about how this tragic event unfolded, but it was amazing how painstakingly well documented the production of that debacle was...ie, why it had to be their worst album ever, blah, blah, blah. Also quite aware of general views of public at large, in Bay Area anyhoo...

Again, these are direct quotes, NOT me...

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Jul 27, 2012 4:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SYFace SUCKED...direct vote of ALL DEAD members

Somehow missed this book... I read Phil's, McNally's, and David Gans' books. I'm not denying it might play into your wheelhouse. We can safely agree that "early is better", it's just your definition of "early" where we fall out.

Other opinions stated above were strictly my own, as is this one: I think they got tired of some the early tunes. Some of Bob's material is quite complex also - you might say WRS replaced the St.St/Eleven suite... IMHO, when cocaine and heroine replaced the pot and LSD, things started going downhill.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 28, 2012 11:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SYFace SUCKED...direct vote of ALL DEAD members

Yup; defn agree about the transition to those drugs correlating.

Ya know, uj, one thing I do find intriguing in all this "jam band critique" biz I find myself exposed to these days (via my CREAM interest), is this tension (?) vis-a-vis complex vs simple, one chord vs 10, etc., etc.

So, eg, we have EClaption being absolutely devastated by those music mag critics suggesting he plays simplistic blues cliches, and just extends it monotonically in jams, and these don't compare with complex chord progressions of the prog rock efforts in the early 70s, while Jerry and the rest don't get ANY credit for the complexity of the 11, eh?

I mean, the myth is the DEAD just noodled along, and perhaps in DS of the 70s, this is more true, but not for the live DEAD suites, IMHO.

You can't make anyone happy, can ya?

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Jul 28, 2012 12:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SYFace SUCKED...

I might be interested in reading some of that "jam band critique" biz... Do they still have it in for bands like Furthur, Phish, GD, etc? I was unaware EC was devastated by critiques, he seems to have gone his merry way now for decades. I enjoy many of his efforts, and his talent has bought him a well-deserved reputation as one of the greats of all times.

So back to complexity: We agree the GD don't get credit for complexity. The Eleven is possibly my favorite GD piece (along with Eyes), a crown jewel... but that's partially due to its setting, nestled in a complex suite. The Other One began as another piece of a combination, and it took them some time to really find the groove with that. The "noodling" critics have a demonstrable point, but haven't listened to the catalog like we have. There are numerous instances when the jamming should have been abbreviated, is going nowhere, and the band just keeps going, and going. Lots of PITB and TOO 's from the 80s are big offenders. If you can't make a miracle in 10 minutes, will another 15 minutes make it better?

On the other hand, I think JG and the GD could take a simple piece, albeit short, and play it so beautifully with all kinds of complexity. Think of how deadly El Paso would be without that lyrical Garcia lead intertwined around it, Phil's intricate bass runs in Bertha, neat rhythm playing from Weir on Big River. Many of the early cowboy songs are just wonderfully, tightly executed - examples like Next Time, Mama Tried, BIODTL, Big Rvier really showcase what the band was built for. As for Dark Star - I give 'em a pass on that, it was intentionally exploratory, and a failure if not pushed to boundaries. But the Dead don't get credit for playing well, and we know they were more than capable of it.

Screw the critics. Their criticism is valid to a point, and like some "jam" band music, just so much flagellation.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 28, 2012 2:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SYFace SUCKED...

Oh, sorry, uh; was thinking it was you and me that chatted about those critics a couple months back...LiA and some others posted a few, so you could find them here, OR just google "review + wheels of fire" or some combo to find what I am speaking of for EC. I also got a bit of from the movies, so if you have NetFlix, you can find at least two of those CREAM movies there, I believe ("classic" bands is one of them...).

Anyhoo, EC admits to reading the one and literally breaking down, actually collapsing (said he fainted) in 68 when finding the one on WofFire in RStone!? I really felt sorry for the guy...it happened out in public, with friends at dinner or some such, and thus, folks around him knew he'd been deeply impacted. It confirmed his desire to shift gears from CREAM related efforts.

I always thought of the 11 as THE jam for the DEAD; I used some of the verses in my HS graduation "comments" in the early 70s (they let us provide a quote).

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